"Against Calvinism" with Dr. Roger Olson

All i had to do was watch the full presentation here on YT of Dave Hunts what love is this,and i was out of TULIP.Period.

I’d like to give a shout out to Roger Olsen! Although I think Leighton is more correct, I appreciate Roger putting so much info available online. It was his writings which first gave me clarity on where Calvinism was so wrong. 👍👍

@ 37:44 Roger Olson says, “A loving relationship has to be chosen and free and it can’t be imposed or controlled or else it’s not really love and it’s not really a relationship it’s a condition.” I FULLY AGREE with this as well. God longs for a relationship with His creation but we’d rather just be robots than have a real deep meaningful relationship with the creator of the universe. He’s offered it to us in His Son. He’s offered us this REAL meaningful relationship through faith in Christ. Yet some people just can’t accept that our Creator could possibly love us like this. They think it downplays God. When will we they wake up and realize THAT’S WHAT HE WANTS! He wants a real relationship! He’s saying, “it’s OK!” He’s saying, “just TRUST ME!” He’s saying, “this is how I ordained it to be!” He’s saying, “I’m most glorified when the pinnacle of my creation seeks my face WILLINGLY!” Just accept it! IT BRINGS ME THE MOST PLEASURE! It’s OK you’re not taking away from my glory! ********************************** When meditating on the pleas of God in the bible do they not see His heart? Do they not see His longing? Do they not see His arm stretched out in a GENUINE OFFER to all to believe freely? **He loves His creation soo much that He wants it to be a FREE RESPONSE to His gracious offer. **Can we truly grasp the depth of that kind of love? Just as a husband and wife represent Christ and the church. Could you ever say honestly you could love a robot? Or could you honestly say that if you MADE your wife love you that it would feel real and meaningful? ********************************** ********************************** LOVE IS THE SUPREME ETHIC 1 CORINTHIANS 13:13 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY. ********************************** MATTHEW 22:36-40 36 Master, which is the GREAT COMMANDMENT in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets. ********************************** The ultimate ethic in life is LOVE. This is the supreme ethic. There is no ethic more supreme than love. And necessary to love is the component of the will. You cannot have love without the freedom to not love. THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL IS INDISPENSABLE TO LOVE. ********************************** The greatest possible gift God could give us is the freedom of the will in order that we could TRULY LOVE HIM If we did not have the freedom of the will then we could NOT truly love. We could have CONFORMITY and COMPLIANCE and COERCION but we couldn’t truly have genuine love. ********************************** *...So with this greatest gift comes also the greatest possibility of calamity.* With this freedom comes the possibility of rejection and the possibility of evil. ...Yet we were WORTH this possibility! FREEDOM MAKES LOVE POSSIBLE. **He loves His creation soo much that He wants it to be a FREE RESPONSE to His gracious offer. **Can you truly grasp the depth of that kind of love? ********************************** ...God in His sovereignty CHOSE to give man freewill to respond and come to Him that they might be saved because without freewill true, genuine love is NOT POSSIBLE. It’s called COERCION NOT LOVE. You could say that God took a “risk” in giving us freewill in that yes, He would be rejected my some. Yet YOU WERE WORTH THE RISK! That’s the depth of His love for us! It’s deeper than the oceans. Oh that we would be able to comprehend what is the height, the depth and the width of God’s love for us! Do we really comprehend it? God choosing some to salvation while passing over others NOT is a love that’s not very deep.

As a young man, I overheard two men talking about biblical things so I introduced myself. They told me they were planning to picket the Billy Graham crusade. I asked them why in the world would they want to do that. They told me Billy Graham was a false teacher. He taught that Jesus died for everyone. That was my first ever experience meeting Calvinists. As you might guess I assumed they were the Antichrist. My second encounter was a young man who told me he was going to hell because he was not one of the elect. I asked him how he came to such a ridiculous conclusion and he explained it was his understanding of Calvinism. Then my daughter went off to Trinity College which is right here in town. The boys in the school love to talk theology. The head theology professor there at the school was Calvinist. This is the first time I heard about the TULIP. I've been a Christian since childhood and had even been ordained for many years in a Trinitarian, Pentecostal denomination. I began to search the scriptures for verses I called “Calvin crushers”. Most folks in The Assembly of God, Church of God, Foursquare etc are Arminian but have no idea they are. I always thought we were like Baptists in high gear! lol. Many of us have never heard anything about John Calvin or have read up on church history. I am now devouring everything I can find on the subject. BTW, Did you know Justin Martyr wrote a whole chapter on free will in his dialogue with Trypho? I enjoy your videos very much. Thank you for what you do. The peace of Christ be with you,.

Great guest to bring on. His books was great for this topic. Thanks for discussing differences as well as areas of agreement.

thank you for having Dr. Olson on your program. I read his book and he very clearly spells out his arguments against calvinism. It is a thorny issue which has sown confusion when introduced to evangelicals who were not brought up to believe it. Unfortunately, division in the body of Christ often ensues when it is pushed. It definitely is a different view of God's character, which is the bottom line, as Dr. Olson points out.

Olsen makes an excellent point on "reason." How then, can Calvinism be the deeper or more intellectual approach to soteriology? To me it borders on gnosticism.

I had a crisis of faith when I was first exposed to Calvinism in college. I wasn't at all disturbed that God predestined me, I was horrified that he made people for hell for his own glory, which is unbiblical. What the heck did I do to deserve his grace apart from being a sinner as apposed to the guy next to me that didn't make it in the book of life? I had to come back to the understanding that God is Good and is not a Monster. It came to me by reciting out loud Jesus loves me like in Galatians 2:20-22.. That was the sabot round from the holy spirit to bring me salem and end the crisis.

Dr. Leighton-- good job holding to truth, not compromising to be "tactical". Common ground with Calvinists should only be sought out under and based upon TRUTH

I looked up Ruby Sparks out of curiosity. There isn't a love potion involved. It is actually about an admired writer who has hit a wall with his next book. He tries a new approach by using an old manual typewriter. He finds that his new character that he creates on the typewriter has come to life and he is controlling every aspect of her life via his story, unbeknownst to her. It turns out to be a better analogy for this topic than a love potion. The best part? The writer's name is Calvin.

@ 28:13 and also near the end of the discussion around 1:04:24 they discuss the character of God and what glorifies Him. God’s MERCY is one of His best attributes that He actually loves to showcase and longs to show off. We see this with the story of Moses when God CHOSE to showcase His GLORY to Moses. How did GOD CHOOSE to showcase His GLORY? Why can’t we just let GOD tell us about His character instead of trying to tell Him what we THINK it should be?! What attributes did GOD HIMSELF CHOOSE TO REVEAL and PROCLAIM to Moses when He stood with him in the cloud on the top of the mountain? God HIMSELF proclaimed His own name by showcasing His MERCY, His GRACE and His PATIENCE: EXODUS 34:5,6 5 And THE LORD DESCENDED IN THE CLOUD, and stood with him there, and PROCLAIMED THE NAME OF THE LORD. 6 And the Lord passed by before him, and PROCLAIMED, THE LORD, THE LORD GOD, MERCIFUL AND GRACIOUS, LONGSUFFERING, AND ABUNDANT IN GOODNESS AND TRUTH **Q: Did God choose to showcase His MERCY or His Justice as part of His glory? ********************************* Showing mercy actually EXALTS God which is why He patiently waits to extend it: ISAIAH 30:18 18 Therefore the Lord WAITS TO BE GRACIOUS to you, and therefore he EXALTS HIMSELF to SHOW MERCY to you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him. ********************************* ...According to Jonah 4:2 Jonah knew God was merciful and would rather show His mercy and relent from harm so then why reformers know this? JONAH 4:2 2 And he prayed to the Lord and said, “O Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; FOR I KNEW THAT YOU ARE A GRACIOUS GOD AND MERCIFUL, SLOW TO ANGER AND ABOUNDING IN STEADFAST LOVE, AND RELENTING FROM DISASTER. ********************************* ... According to Psalm 86:5 God is ready to forgive and plenteous in mercy to ALL that call upon Him: PSALM 86:5 5 For thou, Lord, art good, and READY TO FORGIVE; and PLENTEOUS IN MERCY UNTO ALL THEM THAT CALL UPON THEE. **Do reformers believe as the Psalmist believes or do they disagree and think this only applies to a select few? ********************************* ...According to Proverbs 28:13 WHOSO confesses and forsakes his sins shall have mercy: PROVERBS 28:13 13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but WHOSO CONFESSETH AND FORSAKETH THEM SHALL HAVE MERCY. **Do reformers truly believe this or do they disagree with this proverb and think it only applies to a select few? ********************************* ...According to James 2:13 it’s quite clear that MERCY is what triumphs and brings God the most glory: JAMES 2:13 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and MERCY REJOICETH AGAINST JUDGMENT.

@ Aaron Pilkey Consider this from Psalm 115 ~ "Not to us, Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory *because of your faithful love*, because of your truth." Psalm 115:1 CSB

What a GREAT discussion! This is a keeper; especially the aspects regarding prevenient grace or the gospel being not merely the carrier of God's saving grace but the actual grace itself! 2 issues came up in the last 5 minutes worthy of pushing back: 1. 1:07 onward regarding the God of Calvinism being a "monstrous God"... I think that from the Calvinist perspective this isn't fair for 2 reasons. A, Calvinists believe they are following Pauline theology. For the sake of discussion; if they are right, notice the Apostle Paul's reactions to both this gospel (of only limited atonement of a predetermined minority elect to salvation) and to the character of God who willed it this way. Paul's doxologies proclaim His glory, His infinite wisdom, His grace, His worthiness of praise, etc. Let's be clear (and fair): whatever Paul is teaching completely enamors him about God! So, if Calvinism is correct, Paul (who taught it) surely didn't conclude that God is a monster! So, just like the false accusation of "semi-pelagianism" toward Arminians needs to stop; this accusation of Calvin's "monstrous" God isn't charitable or a necessary conclusion. B. As the Old Testament unfolds and progresses, the reader is brought into the perspective of the Israelites (not of an objective 3rd party like an OT United Nations). God is seen through their lens as His special people among pagans who are without knowledge of God and without the Covenant. Reading the historical events and the Psalms' reflections on those events confirms the insider viewpoint. i.e. Never do Moses (regarding the devastation of Egyptian firstborns), Joshua (regarding Canaanite idolaters), David (regarding his political opponents), or later prophets (regarding Sodom, Tyre, Assyria, or Babylonia - to name just a few) consider God a "monster" for destroying other nations. God willed that Israel was His special possession. Calvinists see continuity between the OT and NT on this (i.e. Covenant Theology). They would see God continuing in the NT expression of the Church as His covenant people (chosen by Him) with Israel being the OT expression of His Covenant People (chosen by Him), and outsiders are simply largely devalued. No one reading the OT weeps when Goliath was defeated or critiques God for not having chosen the Philistines, right? 2. It seems like the emotion driving some Arminians to consider the Calvinist God to be a monster are the result of a prior commitment to the nature of "hell" as being some form of eternal (unending) torture (pain, gnashing, etc.). If the experience of gehenna is understood differently (many options here), then the monster accusations have opportunity to recede substantially. This presumption of a Dante-version of "hell" should be admitted when the accusations of a monster God are made. (This, by the way, is ALWAYS what skeptics and atheists base their monster views of God on).

Excellent and very informative conversation.

"Arminians are barely Christians" = R. C. Sproul "You're flattening it out" = James White

If I get it right, as for the non-believers, the work of the Holy Spirit is to 'convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, ' as in John 16:8-11, in order to convict people of how much they need God. And then once someone got convicted and come to Christ, accepted and believe in Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit is to regenerate them, help them to be "born again". Is it a good thing to look at the whole thing like that? or anything that needs to change in my thinking?

I only wish it were longer.

Olson makes the same mistake so many others do in this debate: separate Soteriology from Theology; separate Soteriology from Pneumatology; separate Soteriology from Christology. The same God, the same Christ, the same Holy Spirit you describe in your soteriology MUST BE THE SAME God the Father, Christ the Son, and Holy Spirit present in your doctrines on the nature of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. How God saves in Christ through the Holy Spirit is Who God Is, and there is a world of difference between a Calvinist god and the God revealed in Scripture.

Finally!!!

Thanx, Gentlemen 🌹🌹🌹