DungeonCraft #26: Money & Treasure

"Why does a bugbear need silver?" Hhmmm, that gives me an idea. DM brain activates On your way to town, you pass a merchant cart. The owner, looking shaken and confused but unharmed, says he was robbed by goblins and they only took his silver pieces leaving the gold and copper. In town you discover the local bank was robbed. Again, only silver pieces were taken. Following the tracks/clues, you discover a tribe of treetop dwelling goblins who are attacked monthly by werewolves. They've stolen the silver pieces and are attempting to melt them down and coat their weapons. Will you help them defeat the werewolves? Will you kill the goblins and take the silver back? What do you do?

This is pure genius. I feel like I’m reading a treasure chest every time I listen to one of your lectures.

Historically, the $1 US gold coin (minted from 1849 - 1889) contained a bit more than 1.6g of gold (around 280/lb avoirdupois). The silver dime (90% silver) massed 2.5g. A one ounce coin is both huge and historically quite unlikely to be seen anywhere, much less in the horde of a random monster. Since we're doing the whole economics thing. NB: Never try to do econ in a D&D game. Down that road lies pain and sorrow and the end is a bog of infinite depth. 8-)

An object might be worth more than the weight of the materials it's made of depending on the craftsmanship or the cultural significance. Granted, if we're going on a medieval setting, labor was relatively cheap, but making that cup is going to take more work than making an ingot. The moneylender may not care about more than the weight of it, but that's where knowing people an negotiating come in. You might have to find the right trader or buyer to sell it closer to its value. I like the idea of a general per diem, but not necessitating it ramping up proportional to level or Wisdom saves to spend less. It takes a bit of agency away from the players. I'd rather give players an inspiration point or a "rested" status that lets them ignore a level of exhaustion they would otherwise suffer (like a negative exhaustion level), or shorten the time it takes for a short rest (30 minutes instead of an hour). At higher levels it costs more to get your rested status. And maybe you can even stockpile them (up to half your level rounded up).

As an accountant I like the bean counting part of D&D lol.

Future generations when they watch this video and get to the anecdote around 6:30: "Getting older means getting more money? This guy's off his rocker."

I've just done my first ever proper DnD style game with my kids. I gave them D3+1 gold each and 5D6 silver each (10 silver = 1 Gold) and treated money like you have here. They earn the money or they find it on the body of someone. Random creatures just wouldn't have it unless its situational like the body of an adventurer eaten by giant spiders that's found in the webbing. The spiders don't have the money themselves but its trapped in their web. 100% what you say. They painted their minis and the youngest kept bringing in his dinosaurs too which were easily enough incorporated into the game. They're near begging me for another game now, my head's a shed! Hardest part is keeping them in-line with playing the game, they all get excited and talk over each other. Better that though than trying to get them into it I think. Thanks for the vids!!

I'd like to echo the sentiments of some other posters, and add a few of my own. Others have pointed out: 1. Coins weigh 1/3 oz. (50=lb.) PHB 5e 2. Objects are valued above materials cost due to craftsmanship (unless being sold for scrap or "pawned"). If a spider has coins (or any loot) because it killed a person, then why is Klarg any different? The example used has context of raiding passing human travelers, and taking them prisoner along with all their stuff. There's a merchant in that adventure that wants his goods back. Would Klarg discard shiny coins because he can't shop in town? They might be made into a necklace for a female bugbear, or just left lying around unused. The goblins eat the people and foodstuffs, re-purpose their armor and weapons (if any), adorn their lairs with anything they fancy, and the rest just gets pushed into a "trash" (treasure) pile. Treasure used to give XP, so it had a crucial role in gaining levels. Now, it still represents a potential character motivation and a way to upgrade equipment and pay for services. Clerics and Paladins (and any other devout characters) should also tithe 10% of their wealth to the Church. Taxes from the local Lord can take the form of a one time levy of any amount, or a license to adventure, or even a adventuring company charter. Guilds may regulate adventuring, and have dues. Nobles were constantly going to war with one another, so they were in constant need of coinage to pay soldiers/mercenaries. The characters may be invited to loan their wealth to the King to finance his war efforts in return for repayment (if he wins) later without interest, to gain his political favor (granted land/titles).

I've always considered that most treasure found in dungeons are from previous adventurers who died there, and some monsters just like collecting shiny things. Or maybe it's just the ingrained greed of evil creatures. I like the idea of paying for your monthly expenses. Specially because my players noticed how all the gold they get is kinda useless once you get decent equipment. I'm thinking about using the "pay to level up" system from Ad&d, in which you need (current level) x1 week of training and (current level) x1000 gold pieces to pay for all expenses required for leveling up.

Love the idea of Conan going to the market to buy torches.

3:49 - Yes, clipping and shaving the money existed, but not at nearly the rate you think it did. That's because such practices of devaluing the money constituted counterfeiting, and was always-- always-- punished by death! The death penalty for shaving money only stopped once devalued currency was easily detectable, when silver and gold coins were given the rough "coined edge" we know today. (That's right, kiddies, U.S. coins used to be made of real precious metal!) Also, a standard "gold piece," such as a ducat or florin, weighed just over a tenth of an ounce.

I had a DM 30+ years ago who used a similar system to handle expenses. He simply charged 50gp per level per month and simply called it "Upkeep". That was for "middle class" expenses. We had a player who decided to live in a tent instead of at inns and so his Upkeep cost him more like 25gp per month. One of the player characters, who was the highest level cleric in the region, became the defacto "bishop" of the area and therefore he was able to live in upper class Upkeep while still paying for middle class expenses. Instead of paying 100gp per month living in the upper class, he only spent 50gp per month. The DM made it worth the player's while if they took on certain responsibilities. This incentivized the PC to start work on building a new church for the town. As players, I remember hating the system at the time, but I came to realize that it was really awesome. It incentivized us to use our time wisely and make better choices. The problem was that we were young and stupid and were only interested in killing things and taking their stuff. The DM also tried to make sense out of monsters and treasure. For instance, we once killed a hydra and for a laugh pushed the carcass off a cliff. Then we realized that the treasure was inside the hydra... Man, we were angry with him and ourselves for being so dumb. I think that the game should run on the silver standard however and that coins were much smaller in real life. I think dime sized coins should be the standard with maybe quarter sized coins for rare "doubloons" or something like that.

Respect. This is the best video on treasure/gold that I have ever seen! I need to rewatch this several times to ingest the weight of this gold star video.

A ceremonial gold chalice could easily be worth more than its bullion value. Also, in D&D, 50 gold pieces weigh one pound, which is 1/3 of an ounce (9 grams) each, which is historically accurate for the early English noble.

Great video, the cup by weight may indeed be worth 16GP, however, the value add of craftsmanship or rarity would explain the greater value. Faberge eggs my have USD 10000.00 worth of materials, but rarity, artisanship, and beauty can raise the price to tens of millions of dollars. Also in the medieval world, money was not what mattered, it was land. Money was nice, but land was better,; you can never run out of land, it pays continual rents, whereas money can get stolen, lose value, or be spent.

In my world our adventurers are part of a larger organisation. Everything goes back to the company and the adventurers get rewards for milestones or length of service. They also never find a magic item just laying around and if they ever did it would be property of the organisation. They might get a item or other reward per tier of play.

Personally I always try to factor in if the item even has a buyer in the local area. A 3 horse village doesn't care what that +5 Holy Avenger is worth. Even if they have a blacksmith they're not buying it. Even a large metropolitan area if there is a buyer finding "The" buyer can become a challenge in and of itself.

So on the bugbear having potions of healing, I could see him killing a merchant and taking his wares

I hardly ever have a real treasure. Certain characters loot enemies and it benefits them, some get nothing. So glad again that you have similar views as I do. Always grateful for this channel! Game efficiency is the only way.

In the campaign I played a few years ago, the DM introduced a smith NPC in one town who tried to pay us in a currency of his own minting- “SmithBux”. SmithBux were worth nothing, but my hoarder character took them anyway. The DM loved this and this led to a running gag where he would work SmithBux into the campaign here and there as little Easter eggs.