Would Sauron have betrayed Morgoth?

Eventually Sauron would have to do it. Sauron wanted tyranical rule and control. Morgoth wanted destruction for the sake of destruction. Even his own servants.

Interesting what if scenario; what if Sauron’s original plans with the rings of power worked?

So, if Sauron was more cunning than Morgoth, and Morgoth was still able to deceive and manipulate Fëanor, and he also took the Silmarils, despite them burning him, I wonder what all that tells us? (I mean, I know Morgoth took them as a slight to the elves after killing Finwë and kept them to essentially show that he thought he was above the elves, but why not just get rid of them? Or feed them to Ungoliant if he had no purpose for them outside of that, and killing Finwë would’ve been enough of a victory over the elves to hang over them in mockery, and Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, meaning the Silmarils too. And since they held the holy light of the two trees, that would probably mean that he’d hate them even more than most things.)

I personally believe that Sauron would have eventually betrayed the orcs had he succeeded and here's why. Sauron desires a world of perfect order, Orcs as Darth Gandalf repeatedly says are self destructive creatures that constantly have to be put back in line. They would constantly bicker and fight amongst themselves and other servants of Sauron creating problems for Sauron's perfect world. Also Orcs are soldiers, that's the whole point of their existence, to fight but if there is no enemy to fight then what use would they be? Labourer's? Humans would be better and a lot less destructive and could orc's remove the instinct to fight as Morgoth programmed into them? I think not, there would be no point to their existence and in actuality they would be a liability to Sauron's world order and we know Sauron is not above genocide. As a video regarding seizing power said "The tools needed to seize power are different to the tools needed to maintain it". A good real world comparison would the SA Nazi's. Hitler needed a large group of tough men to project strength and to attack opposition but when Hitler became Chancellor he turned on them because he no longer needed the chaos the SA created but an Ordered society. They were getting out of control and their power was growing. Hitler also wanted to get some of the established powers in Germany on his side like the army generals and the arististocy and the SA's violent acts and demands were maing that difficult.

Eventually. But how would he do so? It’s likely the Balrogs were only slightly less powerfully than him. He’d need to turn a significant amount of Morgoth’e forces to himself. Maybe not the balrogs, then maybe dragons. Given how he made a lot of Morgoths forces in his absence, presumably he had the knowledge of how most of these dark forces could be made. In the third age he made the Olag Hai and the Uruk Hai, more powerful version of orcs and trolls, so surely he had the power to do so. It’s just the sheer power and will of Morgoth that would be hard to overcome, perhaps he could turn him over to the Valar but do what he did with Eonwe and pretend to give himself up or just run away back to the Morgoth’s forces.

Your content keeps getting better and better DG! Congratulations on 5 years of YouTube

Sauron being cunning could have rather easily dealt with Morgoth by feeding information to the Valar. He would also have had a good time improving his reputation by discreetly offering assistance to Morgoths foes with the information being Morgoths "former" lieutenant granted him. Allowing him to position himself in a way where he could both avoid consequences from the Valar (by hiding at a convenient moment after staging a scene where it seems like Morgoth slew him upon finding out he was a traitor after doing enough to secure his image as a valuable asset and saver of many lives done in repentance and at great personal risk.) This would have been a double boon, as Sauron would then have had an easier time being in the good graces of various peoples by dying as in essence a redeemed martyr that became repulsed by his "former" masters evil, ended up turning to the light, and at the cost of his own life helped turn the tide. Meaning, upon his eventual return, Sauron could have spun a tale of how he was rewarded for his deed by being returned by Eru/or and something similar. Or just not act under the name of Sauron with his shapeshifting prowess. Regardless, with a "clean slate" and the martyrdom at his beck and call, Sauron would have been able to use his Anatar Lord of Gifts disguise by linking it not only to being a messenger of the Valar but also cultivate his image as Anatar being inspired to act by the "heroism" of Sauron. If Sauron would have gone down this route, he would have had a heck of an easier time. As now, many different peoples in Middle-Earth would know him as a redeemed or redeemable martyr (certainly people who his actions saved would be vulnerable), meaning rather than oppose him, there would be ample ground for gaining followers from the masses. Especially if Sauron did as he did for the Easterlings, and uplifted peoples, bringing grand machines and marvels alike to them, making them loyal to him and his fable.

He would have, but I honestly see Morgoth killing Sauron before he even got the chance to betray him. There is no love in Morgoth, no room for appreciating loyalty. Gandalf said it best about Sauron to Saruman ‘There is only one Lord of the Rings, only one who can bend them to his will, and he does not share power!’ I believe this goes the same in this circumstance. Morgoth doesn’t share power.

“But if Morgoth started randomly destroying his servants, it wouldn’t serve any purpose” This quote really strikes at what I personally find most compelling about the “Morgoth’s evil vs. Sauron’s evil” conversation. Morgoth wants to be on the same level as (or higher than) Eru Illuvatar so in his mind his own desire to do something is the purpose. Sauron’s striving to control Middle Earth and order it makes him more like a Maiar trying to take on the role appointed to the Valar. He knows, even if he later refuses to acknowledge it, that there is some purpose higher than himself to which he should strive when ordering Middle Earth.

Great video with excellent points!

Bro i've mastered a role play game quest about this just yesterday lmao The player are facing the last hidden Boldog on middle earth, ascaped before the fall of Beleriand. The Boldog was building an army for sabotage and destory Sauron in secret, cause he thinks that Sauron usurped the dark throne of his true Master with his weird ideas about order.

Great video. I think Sauron would certainly have betrayed Morgoth. And since he was not stupid, he would have chosen his moment carefully. Which also means...not waiting too long. While far-fetched, it's interesting to think Sauron may even have had the opportunity for a redemption arc if the Valar hadn't intervened during the War of Wrath. I imagine it would be motivated first by self-interest, and the necessity of allying with other enemies of Morgoth to stop him before it was too late. But according to "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", actual redemption may not have been completely out of his reach yet. Perhaps being forced to actively resist Morgoth rather than the Valar giving him the opportunity to step into his role of defacto Lord of Middle-earth would have been enough. I still think it's more likely Sauron sets himself up as a replacement for Morgoth in the end, but it's fun to consider an alternative.

Sauron would have been crushed because you forgot the Dragons which unlike Balrogs weren't formerly creatures with independent will, so would not turn on Morgoth because they were completely enslaved to his will through design.

Could he though? Why would the Balrogs allow him to start picking them off any more than Sauron? They were Maiar too after all. If we assume that they were under the dominion of Morgoth, then there’s no reason to suggest that Sauron wasn’t either. Did Morgoth give some of his innate power to them as well in return for their service? If so, did this bind them to him in some way? Remember, we hear that Sauron established a cult with worshipped Morgoth in Numenor, not himself. He was comfortable to direct worship towards his old master who at that point was out of the game in the void. I don’t know if it’s certain Sauron could betray Morgoth. I think he had them all by the balls. He never suffers a single betrayal except by Ungoliant and she wasn’t his to command anyway. So, I’m not sure I’m entirely onboard with this one.

In individual battle, I don't think Morgoth could be contended with. Without weapons, only Tulkas and perhaps Ungoliant could overcome him. I would like to hear what others have to say:)

Did Morgoth want to destroy everything? Didn't he just want to remake everything in his image? I guess that could be considered the same thing.

What would Tolkien think of the classic D&D alignment system? Asking cuz he seems to defy it. Sauron the proponent of order uses chaotic orcs as shock troops, and while he always imposes order through his will he never uses law as a tool. The Ringwraiths don't sign contracts and his human vassals are just lesser lords under personal allegiance.

Smith battle royale: Aule vs Faenor vs Sauron vs Morgoth.

'Yes', is the only answer.

Unironically greetings from Belgium! (Belgium doesn't exist)